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Tuesday, January 13, 2009

Lies 2 - double-bind - mixed messages

I have wrote a post on lies. I was thinking about a post about double-bind, a concept that Laing has taken from Bateson, and how it can be traumatizing when you are continuously exposed to it .
Yesterday Matthew wrote a comment that I think says a lot about lies and some of it's effects:

Ana said...

Double-bind is when you receive two opposite messages in one statement:
someone tells you "Hug me." in words but with the body or in another way you can see that "Don't you dare to hug me." is also being said to you.
This is the simple way to explain it.
It's quite disturbing specially when you're a child and is not aware of it.

January 12, 2009 5:48 PM


Radagast said...

""Mixed messages," is another term, meaning more or less the same thing, I think. Funny, isn't it? Our understanding of body language, and so on, is probably quite accute, but we've become obliged to rely only on the written and spoken word and, more to the point, upon what we can prove. If one was to make an accusation, and say that whilst people were saying "appropriate" things, their behaviour pointed to an entirely different course of action, it would be denied, in that childish way that some people deny the blindingly obvious (which explains the tedious correspondence I've had with the "powers" that be. Words are such tricky things: one can lie with them, and yet we all know when we're being bullshitted, but for some people, their way of life demands that that lying routinely is entirely "normal". And then, when one is presented with somebody whose actions and words are entirely congruent (ie, they behave in a way that is entirely consistent with what just came out of their mouths), we wonder at the positive psychological effect that that has!

Speaking personally, I'm tired of being lied to, and I'm tired of people pretending that when they don't do what they said they'd do, they deny ever making the promise, or just ignore me. I dunno, it just seems so counterproductive!"
Matt

8 comments:

Anonymous Drifter said...

I used to be overly concerned about whether I was being lied to or not. Now I just focus on my own truth and what comes out of my own mouth. As long as I'm living a life of truth and honesty that's all that counts.

Ana said...

I'm doing the same and trying hard not to care when it's clear people are lying.

Radagast said...

I have a real issue with lies, and it's this: when one is told a deliberate untruth, but one has no reason to doubt the misinformation that one has received, one will conduct oneself as if that misinformation is correct. "So, what?", I hear you ask.

Well, how many lies have you been told, and then found yourself having to proceed as if those things were true? You see, a person who is told that the Tooth Fairy exists, for example, will conduct themselves as though Tooth Fairy exists. Let's suppose that that belief stays with the person into adulthood, because, by some extraordinary circumstance, it is never countermanded. And then, at the age of 57, they place a tooth that they've had to have pulled under their pillow. And it's still there in the morning. No money, no nothing - they've been living in a parallel reality, believing something to be true, which wasn't.

Now, apply that logic to all the other lies you've ever been told - for example, the one that requires that you believe the shrink, who tells you that you're nuts, and will never be well, again. And then remember that there are people who lie deliberately, in order to protect their interests and their positions.

One can forgive the parent who pretended to be the Tooth Fairy, because they were doing something kind, and using an alter ego to do it. But the person who engages in deceit for their own profit, and others' loss? I have a hard time with that, to be honest.

Matt

Ana said...

Too many levels of lies.
I don't know how to classify when the person deceit for profit.
The Pharmas comes to my mind.
They are lying for sure with the help of many institutions.
This is more than lie to me.
I don't find the exactly word for that.
I will have to think more to clear it all.

Radagast said...

LOL. The Law has a word for it: fraud!

Matt

Ana said...

Yes, and if we were going to name what Pharmas have been doing with the right words they all leads to Law.
I'm still thinking about lies and it's more complex than I thought.
Just made a distinction: lies told by those who were supposed to care about us and those we see on the news day after day.

Radagast said...

LOL. The solutions to most problems are pretty straight forward. They only become complex when the solutions involve certain vested interests losing control over something that they believed to be theirs.

Just imagine if it became commonly accepted that mental illness was a myth, and the phenomenon known as mental illness was explained by something really quite tedious, and easily dealt with? No more shrinks, no more pharma profits. No more political donations. No more power and influence. Who on earth would want such a thing? And who on earth wouldn't?

Matt

Ana said...

LOL
They know the art of creating more and more problems to keep on with the same solution.
We have to deal with it.